This is an archived article that was published on sltrib.com in 2010, and information in the article may be outdated. It is provided only for personal research purposes and may not be reprinted.
The trial of Brian David Mitchell in the 2002 kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart resumed Monday in U.S. District Court.
Smart and her family testified about the ordeal last week, and the prosecution is moving on with other factual witnesses in the case.
Mitchell entered the courtroom singing, as has been customary.
The Tribune is providing this transcript via its reporters at the courthouse in Salt Lake City. This story will be updated regularly throughout the day.
Judge Dale Kimball: Good morning. We are here this morning in the matter of Brian
David Mitchell. Thank you, members of the jury, for being here and being prompt.
[Speaking to Mitchell.] You have a constitutional right to be present unless you keep singing or otherwise disrupt the proceedings. All right, he'll be moved.
[Mitchell is taken to an adjacent room with a video and audio feed.]
Judge Kimball, speaking to the jury: It's been a long weekend I need to make sure you've avoided, reading, listening and talking about the case. I need to know if there are any problems. You may occasionally run into a lawyer for one of the parties. They're not being rude when they ignore you, they're just trying to be careful and not talk to any members of the jury.
David Backman, assistant U.S. Attorney: It is stipulated that Brian David Mitchell bought three Greyhound tickets on Sept. 30 and left on Oct. 7.
[Jill Fleming Ogilvie is called to the stand.]
Backman: Where do you live?
Ogilvie: Lakeside, California.
Backman: Since?
Ogilvie: 1983, approximately 27 years.
Backman: In late 2002-2003, what was your occupation?
Ogilvie: I was retired from the San Diego Police Department and owner of an investigations service.
Backman: Why did you retire?
Ogilvie: Medical injuries sustained in the line of duty.
Backman: Do you currently have an investigation service?
Ogilvie: Yes.
Backman: How long were you with the police department?
Ogilvie: 10 years.
Backman: Can you briefly describe your career.
Ogilvie: I was a uniformed patrol officer, assigned to Logan Heights and downtown.
I answered radio calls and any necessities needed by law enforcement.
Backman: Where is the most challenging part of your patrol?
Ogilvie: Logan Heights.
Backman: Where is Logan Heights?
Ogilvie: The southeast area of San Diego, a low-income, crime-riddled area.
Backman: Did you patrol alone?
Ogilvie: I patrolled alone.
Backman: In late 2002-2003, did you ever see three people walking around Lakeside in robes?
Ogilvie: Yes, I did.
Backman: How many times?
Ogilvie: Approximately 10.
Backman: Did you see the women's faces?
Ogilvie: The older woman's, yes; the younger woman, no.
Backman: Why couldn't you see her face?
Ogilvie: It was concealed with a scarf across her face.
Backman: Could you sometimes not see the older woman's face?
Ogilvie: Yes.
Backman: Was it for the same reason?
Ogilvie: Yes.
Backman: Did you see a late 40s, early 50s white male adult, with a long beard that was salt and pepper, rather Biblical?
Backman: Could you pull government exhibit 22? Ms. Ogilvie could you look at that? Do you recognize that?
Ogilvie: Yes I did.
Backman: Who is it?
Ogilvie: It's the man I encountered in Lakeside.
Backman: Your honor, let the record reflect she ID'd the defendant.
Kimball: It will be so reflected.
Backman: When you would see them together, how would they walk together?
Ogilvie: The man would lead. The younger woman in the middle, the older in the back... They would walk like little ducks in a row.
Backman: Was there room for them to walk side by side?
Ogilvie: Absolutely.
Backman: What were your impressions when you would see them?
Ogilvie: Something was wrong with the picture, clearly. It was out of the norm. The man was clearly the leader of the group. The young girl was out of place. She was school age and apparently not attending school. I'm a mentor in my community for young girls for the last 20 years.... The manner she was dressed, there was no way in my experience that a girl that age would dress that way.... My professional gut reaction was that there was something wrong. I wanted to engage them and have a conversation.
Backman: When did you interact with them?
Ogilvie: The first time I came out of a pharmacy I was as crossing the street.
Backman: What time of year was it?
Ogilvie: January 2003.
Backman: What happened?
Ogilvie: I came out of the liquor store. He was walking in front of them. I went to smile and say hello. He gave me a look that was so intimidating, so encompassed he stopped before i could say i hello.... I looked at the girl. Her eyes were blank. Just absolutely like dead. And the woman didn't look at me at all. I was stunned at my response. By his own actions, he had stopped me midway.
Backman: Had you ever experienced that feeling before?
Ogilvie: Not that manner not that strong.
Backman: Did you ever reach out to law enforcement about your concern?
Ogilvie: Yes.
Backman: Who did you contact?
Ogilvie: I stopped a San Diego sheriff's squad car.
Backman: When was that?
Ogilvie: A day or two later.
Backman: What happened?
Ogilvie: I stopped the deputy; ID'd myself as retired law enforcement. I asked him to contact the three and focus on the young girl. He did, begrudgingly.
Backman: Where did he have you stand?
Ogilvie: Across the street.
Backman: Did you see what happened?
Ogilvie: He only engaged the man in conversation. He asked for ID. The man said he had none. He did not address the women at all. He wrote something down in his notebook and he left.
Backman: Did you address the group again?
Ogilvie: Later I contacted the FBI.
Backman: Did you have any idea who these people were?
Ogilvie: No.
Backman: When you contacted the group again, how many days after you had the deputy stop was that?
Ogilvie: Less than a week.
Backman: Why was it that you wanted to interact with them again?
Ogilvie: I wasn't getting my answers. Something was seriously wrong. I reached out to law enforcement, the FBI and nobody was doing anything. I decided to take it into my hand again.
...
Backman: Who was present when you had a contact with them?
Ogilvie: There were five to seven young ladies that I was mentoring inside an ice cream shop. But they weren't outside when I made the contact.
...
Backman: Was there anyone else there?
Ogilvie: Just the three and I.
Backman: What did you do?
Ogilvie: I wanted again to interact. I needed to engage the man. I wanted to get a read on them. ... I put my hand up. ... He told me something: "Thou shall not stop my motion or my path," in a biblical way. I look to the girl and said, "Are you OK?" At that point her eyes were fearful. I had the impression I was getting her in trouble. The woman behind came up and said .. this be my daughter.
Backman: Did you ask the woman who the girl was?
Ogilvie: No.
Backman: Did the girl say anything at all to you?
Ogilvie: Not a word.
Backman: How much of the girl did you see?
Ogilvie: Only her eyes and her hands.
Backman: How old did she appear?
Ogilvie: Thirteen to 15. Clearly a young girl.
Backman: How tall was she?
Ogilvie: 5-5, 5-6.
Backman: After the woman grabbed the girls arm and said that in some terms she was her daughter what was the man's reaction?
Ogilvie: He was hostile.... He said something to the woman. I have no recollection of what it was. But it was clearly meant to move them along. And they did but the hostility was clearly strong. It was so forceful and intimidating that I literally felt fear.
Backman: Was that because of his size?
Ogilvie: No.
Backman: Had you ever felt that kind of fear as a police officer?
Ogilvie: No, not without a weapon aimed at me.
Backman: As you interacted with the man, did he ever say he was a prophet?
Ogilvie: No.
Lewis: Objection.
Judge: Sustained.
Backman: As you interacted with the man, did he ever identify who he was as a spiritual figure?
Lewis: Objection.
Judge: Overruled.
Ogilvie: No.
Backman: Did he ever sing?
Ogilvie: No
Backman: Could you understand what he was saying to you?
Ogilvie: Yes, except when he would speak in a Biblical way, then I couldn't
follow.
Backman: As a police officer, did you receive training for assessing the mentally ill?
Ogilvie: Yes.
Backman: When did you receive this training?
Ogilvie: I received it when I was training as a police officer, when I was on patrol ...
Backman: As a police officer, how often did you detect someone as mentally ill?
Ogilvie: Can you clarify the question?
Backman: How many people did you actually refer to someone somewhere else than you normally would?
Ogilvie: I transported to the county mental health facility 100-150 times in my career.
Backman: Did you get the impression he was mentally ill?
Ogilvie: No.
Backman: What was different?
Ogilvie: It has been my experience when a person has a mental difficulty, they are not aware of the time and place. They are a danger to themselves and others — usually not in control of themselves, much less in control of anybody else.
Backman: After this last interaction with the group, did you see them again?
Ogilvie: No.
Backman: What was your impression of the girl's situation?
Ogilvie: My gut response was she was in trouble, but I didn't have any probable cause to detain her.
Judge Kimball: Thank you, Mr. Backman. Ms. Lewis, you may cross examine.
Defense attorney Wendy Lewis: Good morning.
Ogilvie: good morning.
Lewis: You said that you typically, in your line of work, dealt with mentally ill people.
Ogilvie: No.
Lewis: So you didn't work with mentally ill people?
Ogilvie: Typically would mean daily, in my estimation, but it was not uncommon.
Lewis: In dealing with a mentally ill person, is it your testimony they were exhibiting behavior that they were a danger to themselves or others?
Ogilvie: No.
Lewis: In the first interaction you didn't say anything?
Ogilvie: True. Yes.
Lewis: In the second interaction you asked only one or two questions?
Ogilvie: No.
Lewis: Did you ask any questions to him?
Ogilvie: I only asked questions to the young woman.
Lewis: When you were assessing people who were mentally ill, could you do so even though you didn't talk with them.
Ogilvie: Yes, it can happen.
Lewis: It can happen. If the person is mentally ill, that is apparent in what manner?
Ogilvie: Their outward behavior. Their actions sometimes spoke volumes louder than words.
Lewis: Mr. Mitchell, you said he frightened you by the tone of his voice.
Ogilvie: This individual has a personality that is much larger than I've ever encountered. He controlled the situation. He was incredibly intimidating.
Lewis: You contacted the authorities, but did not try to get him help?
Ogilvie: My concern was the girl.
Lewis: In your line of duty, if you expected a person was mentally ill, what would you do?
Ogilvie: I didn't assume he had mental illness, ma'am, none at all.
Lewis; I don't have anything further.
Judge Kimball: Ms. Ogilvie, you are excused. Prosecution may call its next witness.
Backman: There is a stipulation: Government exhibit 51, stipulates on Feb. 18, 2003, Brian David Mitchell appeared in court via video feed. Government exhibit 52 is the video tape of the court appearance. Your honor, if we may play the video.
Judge Kimball: You may.
[Video was played. Mitchell doesn't appear to do anything out of the ordinary.]
Backman: May we call Adelia Harrington?
Judge Kimball: Come forward and be sworn in, please. Right up here in front of the clerk of court.
Harrington: My name is Adelia Harrington. [She spells it.]
Backman: Good morning.
Harrington: Good morning.
Backman: Go ahead and pull that microphone down and speak right into it, if you could please. ... Where do you live?
Harrington: I live in San Diego County, Calif. In the city of Poway.
Backman: Who do you live with?
Harrington: I live with my daughter, her husband and my two grandchildren.
Backman: Why do you live with them?
Harrington: It serves two purposes. I was getting ready to retire. My daughter became pregnant with her second child. After the birth of the second child, she was born with a hearing loss. My daughter still needed to work. I was tired of going to work every day. So we agreed that I'd stay home and help with child care.
Backman: ... When did you retire?
Harrington: July 1, 1995.
Backman: What did you do before you retired?
Harrington: I worked for 28 and a half years with the San Diego County Library System.
Backman: Where were you working in 2003?
Harrington: The Lakeside County Library.
Backman: What was your job there?
Harrington: I was branch operations manager.
Backman: In late 2002 to early 2003, did you ever see a group of three people walking around Lakeside in robes?
Harrington: Numerous times. Sometimes on my drive into Lakeside, sometimes in the surrounding area of the library. There's a large lake, with walking trails and picnic areas, and I would see them quite a bit out through that area.
Backman: Could you tell us what sex they were?
Harrington: I could tell one was a man and the other two were women.
Backman: Could you see the women's faces?
Harrington: No. They had veils across their faces and they were all the way up to the area ... so just the eyes were exposed. ... Just this little slit of an area and all the way down to the robe part of the outfit.
Backman: Could you see the man's face?
Harrington: Yes.
Backman: Could you please pull up government exhibit 22? Ms. Harrington, could you look at that picture? Do you recognize that?
Harrington: Yes, I do.
Backman: What is it?
Harrington: This is the man I saw all through Lakeside with the two women in the purple robes. The only difference here is that I see that his hair was more fluffed out on the side more. ... It wasn't pulled back, as this picture shows.
Backman: Your honor, may the record reflect that this witness has identified the defendant?
judge: Yes.
Backman: Thank you. Did the ... when you saw the group walk together, how would they walk together?
Harrington: The man would walk in front of the two women. He would be ahead maybe two-three feet at the most. The two women would walk side by side, the times I saw them.
Backman: Did the three of them ever come into the library?
Harrington: Yes, they did. I can recall two occasions.
Backman: What were they wearing?
Harrington: The first occasion they had on robes.
Backman: What did they do when they came into the library on that occasion?
Harrington: On that occasion, the two women went to the side. We had a water fountain and a wall with some historic pictures of Lakeside. And the gentleman used the public restroom. And the women stayed outside on the wall. ... and then they left.
Backman: How about the second time they came into the library. Do you remember when that was?
Harrington: It was late February, early March. It was our rainy season, and it was quite cold, windy and rainy outside. It had been for a couple of days. I remember the weather so much because when they came into the library they were in jeans and a windbreaker, but they were wet. You could see wet marks on the backs of their legs, on their arms. They were not really, really soaked, but pretty well wet and very dirty. They just looked very unkept. Very dirty, wet and unkept.
Backman: You said this was in late February or early March. Do you know what year that was?
Harrington: 2003, I believe.
Backman: And you mentioned they came in in a certain type of clothing. Were they wearing their robes that day?
Harrington: No. I wouldn't have even recognized them as being the people in the robes.
Backman: What was the girl wearing?
Harrington: The girl was wearing a pair of blue jeans. She had shower shoes on her feet and a blue windbreaker, and she had a baseball cap on her head. Her hair was pulled back into like a ponytail.
Backman: Did she, was she wearing anything on her face or by her baseball cap?
Harrington: Nothing on her face, and I remember a pair of sunglasses, but I can't remember if she was wearing them, but I remember they were maybe on top of her head, I don't really recall.
Backman: What did the girl look like?
Harrington: Um, she looked very sad. She didn't say a word when she was inside the building.
Backman: What was their appearance like?
Harrington: They looked very cold, dirty and wet. They had mud spattered on the back of their clothing, on the back of their legs. My impression was they were homeless and had been doing a lot of walking and...
Backman: What color hair did she have?
Harrington: Blonde hair.
Backman: How long were the group of three in the library on this second occasion?
Harrington: At least 30 minutes; possibly 45 minutes.
Backman: When they came into, where did they go?
Harrington: They went directly to a study table, directly across from the circulation desk. We had a horseshoe circulation desk check in and out. There were two study tables directly across from it. They sat down. The man sat on my right; the two women on my left.
Backman: Where were you at the time?
Harrington: I was at the circulation desk. It was my turn to work the circulation desk. Our duties rotated.
Backman: How far away were you from the three of them?
Harrington: Um, I'm terrible at yards and feet. They were closer than this large table here, but not as close as this computer. I'm going to say 4 to 6 feet away from me. It wasn't a long distance.
Backman: What did you notice about the woman and the girl as they sat at the table?
Harrington: What struck me as a little unusual, when they sat down the older woman with the dark hair moved her chair right up against the young woman's chair. The armchairs were touching. These are 6-foot tables. They had room to spread out. She was pushed out again. My impression was this teenager had really done something to make the parents angry with her. They were not a happy group. Nothing was said. There was no looking around.
Judge Kimball: I'm not sure the last part of that was responsive.
Backman: Did you notice the woman next to the girl do anything?
Harrington: The older woman would take her hand and wrap it around the young girl's wrist, and it would be down at the side of table and she would hang on for a long time; really hung on to it.
Backman: What was the girl acting like when she was sitting?
Harrington: She just looked down at the table. She didn't look around the library. We have huge windows that look out to a lake. There was a huge magazine rack. She didn't look at it. She just looked straight at the table. didn't look around or say anything.
Backman: How did that strike you?
Harrington: Very unusual. I don't know hardly anybody that doesn't look around at a surrounding, especially with activity going on. It's a very busy library. People coming and going all the time. Just to sit at the table is not a normal thing I'd expect to be doing.
....
Backman: Did the man ever ask you for something?
Harrington: Yes, he did. After they sat down, he asked me for an atlas, a road atlas.
Backman: Did you help him with that?
Harrington: Yes, I did, but first I asked him what kind of atlas he wanted. He said he wanted a road atlas for Arizona. I came around the corner and walked over to the shelving unit, handed him a Rand McNally atlas and asked if that's what he needed. He just moved his head up and down.
Backman: When you helped with that did he express any appreciation?
Harrington: No.
Backman: Did he use any unusual language?
Harrington: No.
...
Backman: No further questions.
Judge Kimball: Any further questions, Ms. Lewis?
Lewis: None.
Judge Kimball: I assume this witness may be excused.
Judge: You may call your next witness, Mr. Viti.
Prosecutor Felice Viti: Your honor, the United States calls Mr. Trevelin Colianni.
Judge: Come forward and be sworn in, please. Right up here in front of the clerk of court.
Colianni: Trevelin Douglas Colianni. [spells it.]
Viti: Good morning, Mr. Colianni. ... Mr. Colianni, are you employed?
Colianni: No, sir.
Viti: What is your current status?
Colianni: I'm a 100 percent disabled vet.
Viti: How long have you been retired?
Colianni: Right at six years.
Viti: You said you were a vet. What branch of service?
Colianni: U.S. Navy.
Viti: How long prior to your retirement had you been employed?
Colianni: About 10 years.
Viti: Where do you currently reside?
Colianni: North Las Vegas, Nevada.
...
Viti: I'd like to turn your attention to what you were doing on March 11, 2003.
Colianni: At that time I was picking up my wife for lunch, as I do every day.
Viti: Does your wife work?
Colianni: Yes, sir.
Viti: Where were you taking your wife?
Colianni: To the Burger King on I-15 and Craig Road.
Viti: What did you do when you arrived at the Burger King?
Colianni: I opened the door for my wife and we went up to the counter as we do every time.
Viti: When you entered the Burger King, what, if anything, unusual did you observe?
Colianni: We were headed to the counter and they have these rails you have to go through. I noticed standing by the soda machines over there three people.
Viti: Can you describe them?
Colianni: There was an older lady there, probably in her 40s or so. What I remember the most is the braided twigs in her hair and flowers around it.
Viti: The other two individuals, what gender were they?
Colianni: One was a male. The other was a young female.
Viti: Turing your attention to the male, could you give us a description?
Colianni: He had long hair and a scraggly beard.
Viti: What was he wearing?
Colianni: Regular civilian clothes. It's what I would call them in the Navy.
Viti: Mr. Colianni, I'd like you to look at government exhibit 22. Do you recognize that exhibit?
Colianni: Yes, sir. That's the man that I seen.
Viti: Your honor may the record reflect the witness has identified the defendant, Brian David Mitchell.
Judge: Yes.
Viti: Turning your attention to the younger female. Could you describe her?
Colianni: It's kind of hard not to forget. She had kind of a grayish wig on with a scarf around it. She had sunglasses and a look I'll never forget. She looked very frightened and nervous. ... It looked like her face was quivering. It didn't look like she belonged there ... She a had a "help me" look.
Viti: ... When you observed these three individuals, where were they again?
Colianni: They were standing by the soda machine. They looked like they were waiting on their order.
Viti: Where was the young female in relation to the male?
Colianni: In the middle, between the older female and him.
Viti: What did you observe about the interaction between the young female and male?
Colianni: Every time they moved, he had a hold of her wrist. She never looked like she moved on her own. He was always like moving her around by the wrist.
Viti: Was it by the wrist or the hand?
Colianni: It was by the wrist. He never had a hold of her hand.
Viti: Did there come a time at that point ... when these three left the area of the soda machine?
Colianni: Yes.
Viti: Where did they go?
Colianni: There was a chair by the door, and there was a window there. By the entrance.
Viti: Was the Burger King crowded or empty?
Colianni: There wasn't too many people when I first walked in. It started getting crowded though.
Viti: Can you describe where they sat?
Colianni: The younger lady was on the inside seat. He was sitting next to her, and the older lady was across from them.
...
Viti: She was in the middle?
Colianni: Yes.
Viti: What did the three do when they sat down?
Colianni: As soon as they sat down, I seen them all bow their head. It looked like they were praying.
Viti: What happened next?
Colianni: After the praying?
Viti: Yes.
Colianni: My wife and I had finished our lunches and we decided to leave.
Viti: Did you leave?
Colianni: Yes. We got in the truck.
Viti: Did you leave before the defendant and the two females?
Colianni: Yes. ... The minute we got in the truck I looked at my wife and said, "Something here is out of place. I think we should call the cops." And she agreed with me.
Viti: Did you do that?
Colianni: Yes, sir.
Viti: Back in the restaurant, did you observe the defendant's demeanor.
Colianni: Every time someone would come in, he would stare at them. He looked like he was getting nervous the more people showed up.
Viti: What happened after you called the police?
Colianni: After I called them, I asked if they wanted me to keep an eye on them and they told me no. They were going to send somebody down.
Viti: What did you do after that?
Colianni: I took my wife back to work.
Viti: After that what happened?
Colianni: I came back down Craig Road so I could head home.
Viti: Does this take you past the Burger King?
Colianni: Yes, it does.
Viti: Did you see the individuals at that time?
Colianni: Yes.
Viti: What were they doing?
Colianni: Walking away from the Burger King.
Viti: Were they carrying anything at that time?
Colianni: I believe they did have something.
Viti: How long were you able to observe these individuals?
Colianni: A total of at least a half an hour.
Viti: Based on your observations, were you able to determine who was leading the group?
Colianni: Yes, sir. The gentleman.
Viti: What led you to that conclusion?
Colianni: He always had this girl ... i don't think he ever let go of her. It just looked like he was in charge.
Viti: During your encounter, did you ever hear them speaking to each other?
Colianni: No, sir.
Viti: Besides the behavior that you described, was there anything unusual about the defendant.
Colianni: If you ask me, he looked like he might have been God or Jesus or somebody. That's what he reminded me of when I seen him.
Viti: Facially?
Colianni: Yes.
Viti: Because of the hair?
Colianni: The hair and the beard.
Viti: Was there anything about the defendant's behavior that made you believe he was mentally ill?
Colianni: No.
Viti: I have no further questions.
Judge: Thank you, Mr. Viti. Ms. Lewis, any cross examinations?
Lewis: Have you been trained in psychology or psychiatry?
Colianni: No.
Lewis: You said the older woman had twigs and flowers on her head?
Colianni: Yes.
Lewis: He had a hat?
Colianni: Yes.
Lewis: He had flowers stuck in the band of that hat?
Colianni: I remember one flower.
Lewis: These people sat down and said a prayer together?
Colianni: Looked like it to me.
Lewis: They held hands?
Colianni: Yes.
Lewis: You didn't' hear the prayer?
Colianni: No, ma'am.
Lewis: Anything in their demeanor to lead you to believe they weren't sincere in prayer?
Colianni: No, well... [Lewis cuts him off]
Lewis: Did anybody approach them in restaurant at all?
Colianni: No.
Lewis: You didn't approach them?
Colianni: No.
Lewis: Did you ever see somebody pray in burger king before?
Colianni: Yes, I pray every time before I eat in Burger King.
Lewis: Have you noticed other people praying in Burger King before?
Colianni: I don't know about at a Burger King but other times, yes.
Lewis: They appeared very unusual?
Colianni: Yes.
Lewis: Flower and twigs and wig on younger woman?
Colianni: Yes.
Lewis: They weren't' trying to go unnoticed?
Colianni: No, well, yes, I'd say the way they had that little girl dressed up, I'd say yes.
Lewis: So coming into the Burger King dressed unusually, that was them trying to come in unnoticed?
Colianni: Yes.
Lewis: I have no further questions.
Viti: You lived in Las Vegas, Nevada?
Colianni: Yes.
Viti: Are there unusual people in Las Vegas?
Colianni: Yes.
Viti: It wasn't the flower in the man's hat that mad you call police?
Colianni: No.
Viti: It wasn't the prayer you said you saw them do that made you call police was it?
Colianni: No.
Viti: When Ms. Lewis was questioning you about the sincerity of the prayer, you wanted to say something. what did you want to say?
Colianni: He didn't have of this girl's hand. He held her wrist. When we pray around the table, we hold hands.
Viti: Have you ever called police because you saw someone praying?
Colianni: No.
Viti: Has anyone called the police on you for praying in the Burger King?
Colianni: No.
Viti: What was it that made you call the police?
Colianni: The look on this little girl's face.
Viti: What was the look?
Colianni: Frightened, very scared.
[Court takes a break. It returns to session about 15 minutes later.]
Judge Kimball: We'll the get the jury and proceed. You may call your next witness, Mr. Backman.
Backman: Your honor, thanks for indulging us. We call Anita Dickerson.
Judge Kimball: Come right up here and be sworn.
Dickerson: Anita Dickerson (spells it).
Backman: Good morning
Dickerson: Good morning.
Backman: Where did you reside in 2003?
Dickerson: We lived in Sandy, Utah.
Backman: Do you still live there?
Dickerson: No.
Backman: Where do you live?
Dickerson: We live in south Jordan.
Backman: What is your occupation?
Dickerson: I'm a supervisor with Delta Airlines.
Backman: What was your occupation in 2003?
Dickerson: I had a different position for Delta.
Backman: Were you working on March 12, 2003?
Dickerson: No.
Backman: Why not?
Dickerson: I had the day off from work, and my husband was also off. We were running errands.
Backman: Prior to March 12, 2003, did you see news coverage of who was suspected of kidnapping Elizabeth Smart?
Dickerson: Yes.
Backman: Did the news coverage say who the suspects were?
Dickerson: Yes.
Backman: Who?
Dickerson: Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee.
Backman: Did the news coverage display any photos of them?
Dickerson: Yes.
Backman: Was that coverage close to March 2003?
Dickerson: Yes.
Backman: You mentioned on March 12 you and your husband were doing some errands. Where were you running those errands?
Dickerson: In Sandy. We were on State Street.
Backman: Who was driving?
Dickerson: My husband. I was in the passenger seat.
Backman: Where were you driving on State Street?
Dickerson: We were going north. We stopped at a light on State and 106th.
...
Backman: As you were stopped at that traffic light did you notice anything?
Dickerson: Not right away. But after the light turned green and we proceeded north, I looked over to the right and saw three individuals. I noticed they were dressed quite different. I made a remark to my husband about they way they were dressed.
Backman: How close were you to these people when you saw them?
Dickerson: As we were coming up from behind them, we passed by them. At the closest point they were only about 10 feet away form our car.
Backman: How many of them were there?
Dickerson: Three.
Backman: What did you notice about them?
Dickerson: I noticed coming up from behind that they had a certain formation. There was a man in the front and two females were behind him sort of following him. I noticed that they all three appeared to be adults. As we were coming up getting closer to them, I could tell that the female on the eft hand side, her head was not covered and she had her hair pulled back and pinned up, and she had white flowers around the back of her head.
Backman: And this person, you mentioned she was a woman.
Dickerson: Yes.
Backman: Did she look older or younger?
Dickerson: She looked middle-aged.
Backman: The man, did you see his face?
Dickerson: Yes, when we got beside them, there appeared to be a female to the right of the middle-aged woman. She had a white scarf on her head. I turned to look because I wanted to see their faces. The older lady I recognized as being Wanda Barzee, the person I'd seen in photographs. I saw the other female, but I didn't notice her. She had large white sunglasses. I only saw from her eyes down. She had fair skin.
Backman: Did you notice the man?
Dickerson: Yes, I turned my focus to the man. I noticed he had longer hair and was not dressed very nicely. As I passed by him, i noticed he had a beard and facial hair.
Backman: Did you recognize him?
Dickerson: I did.
Backman: What, if anything, did you do to get better look?
Dickerson: When I recognized he was Brian David Mitchell from photographs, I turned to my husband and said, "It's them." It was something so unexpected happening. I told my husband, because we were in traffic and on State Street we were moving in the flow and taking us away from them, pull over and park and get another look at this man. It may have been for my own benefit because it was happening so fast, I had to process what was happening and convince myself I was seeing the people on the television.
Backman: Is that what you did, stop in the parking lot?
Dickerson: Yes, I did.
Backman: Where?
Dickerson: At that time it was in Kinko's parking lot.
Backman: When you got out, what did you do?
Dickerson: I walked to the back of the vehicle. I didn't want to stand and stare at them, but as I realized they were getting closer, I turned to look at them.
Almost at the same time, Brian David Mitchell looked right in my eyes. We were looking at each other face-to-face.
Backman: What did he do?
Dickerson: He almost immediately turned his head away and dropped his head to
look at the sidewalk. I knew at that time when I looked at his face and saw his eyes, I had the recollection of visual images in my mind of the photograph that he was matching what I was seeing. I walked back to my car, opened the door, tried to get my cell phone out, but it was taking too long. I walked around the car to my husband's side and said, "Give me your cell phone. I'm calling 911. I know it's them."
Backman: Did you call 911?
Dickerson: Yes, I did.
Backman: This is government exhibit 22. Do you recognize it?
Dickerson: Yes, that's Brian David Mitchell. That's the man I saw.
Backman: Let the record reflect the witness has identified it was the defendant.
Judge Kimball: It will so reflect.
Backman: I have no further questions.
Judge: Ms. Lewis?
Lewis: I have no questions.
Judge: I assume this witness may be excused. [To Dickerson.] You may be excused.
Backman: At this time I would like to read a stipulation into record and play a video.
Judge: A stipulation being an agreement.
Backman: The defendant was interviewed by FBI agents and the video is the interview.
[The prosecutors play a 2-hour FBI interview with Mitchell for the jury. The Tribune will not transcribe the video. To read a past Tribune story about the video, go to http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50679381-76/mitchell-gardner-court-evaluation.html.csp]
Some snippets from the FBI interrogation of Brian David Mitchell in 2003:
Mitchell: By the power of god she was delivered to us.
...
FBI: You're kind of laying your groundwork for the state mental hospital instead of prison, except for one thing ...
Mitchell: You think I want to go to a mental hospital? ... a mental hospital to me is the worst thing to happen. ... A mental hospital to me would be a worse thing to have happen than prison. But I'm wiling to suffer whatever the lord God will.
...
Mitchell: She's had a glorious experience.
FBI: WITH YOU!? Are you telling me the past nine months have been glorious!?
Mitchell: All of us have had many trials and tribulations ... but we've seen God's power of deliverance.
FBI: For example ...
Mitchell: And she knows who I am. She knows I am servant of the lord.
...
FBI: When did God command you to take Elizabeth as your wife?
Mitchell: The day is immaterial. .... He delivered her out of the world and commanded that I receive her as my wife. The date mattereth not.
FBI: I think you're being very rude to not answer our questions.
Mitchell: Every single one of your questions is meant to entrap me, you feel justified in lying to me and deceiving me.
...
Mitchell: I think you've changed your tactics to use flattery and are being completely false. The tactic of accusing me of carnal lust didn't work and now you're trying to flatter me.
...
FBI: The jury is going to say if he had nothing to hide, why didn't he answer the most basic and simple questions?
Mitchell: If you know Mormon theology, exaltation in the celestial kingdom is to have more than one wife.
...
FBI: Where have you been with her?
Mitchell: Throughout the land.
...
Mitchell: I can only answer what the lord God almighty puts in my heart, and that's the truth.
[Agents point out when he has to think about an answer before replying.]
...
"This is worse than Christmas Mass," one of the agents said.
...
Agent: Christ did not take 15-year-old girls from their rooms at knifepoint, he did not tether them to a campsite, he did not lie to the police about who he was, he was not a drunk driver.
Mitchell: I'm afraid you know little of who Christ was.
Agent: If heaven is filled with people like you, I'd be more comfortable in hell. Your story is bull——.
...
Mitchell: I have more compassion for that family [Smart family].
...
[The FBI agent quotes passage about it being better to tie a millstone around his neck and jumping in the lake and drowning himself rather than harm a hair on a child's head.]
Mitchell: That's why I feel so sorry for Shear-Jashub because you are doing this to her.
...
FBI: She's distraught over having sex with you. How often do you shower?
Mitchell: God didn't tell me to have sex with her. God told me to receive her as my wife.
FBI: God did not tell you to have sex with her?
Mitchell: Your accusations are false.
FBI: Why should Elizabeth submit to your control?
Mitchell: I never controlled her.
FBI: Did you have sex with Elizabeth or Esther?
Mitchell: I look into your eye and your heart and tell you no.
FBI: Look me in the eye and tell me if you entered the Smart home and took her in the night.
...
Mitchell: I never said I was a prophet of God. I told you I was a servant of the lord.
...
FBI: It's a yes or no question, you're thinking and truthful answers don't require thinking about.
Mitchell: I've already answered your questions, your questions are an accusation.
...
Mitchell: I never raped anyone.
FBI: Did she consent to have sex with you?
Mitchell: I never raped anyone. That's what I'm telling you. I never raped anyone.
...
Mitchell says he "received her."
FBI: What does it mean to receive her?
Mitchell: You're asking me to talk about things that are sacred and holy.
...
Mitchell: It matters not what you say or how good you say the case is against me, because God hath power to deliver me.
...
In God's eyes she's 18. ... She chose to be sealed as my wife.
...
Mitchell takes a break and starts singing hymns.
At one point, Mitchell just begins to say nine times (loudly) over and over: Get thee behind me, Satan.
[The interview is over. The jury is seated. The live testimony resumes.]
Judge Kimball: You may call your next witness.
Backman: George Dougherty.
Judge Kimball: Come forward and be sworn please, right up here in front of the clerk of court.
Dougherty: George Dougherty [spells it].
Backman: Good afternoon.
Dougherty: Good afternoon.
Backman: What is your occupation?
Dougherty: I am a special agent with the federal bureau of investigation.
Backman: How long have you been an FBI agent.
Dougherty: Almost 14 years.
Backman: So in March 2003 how long had you been an FBI agent?
Dougherty: About six years.
Backman: What were your assignments?
Dougherty: Mainly violent crime matters, bank robberies and kidnappings.
Backman: At that point, how many interviews had you conducted?
Dougherty: In March of 2003?
Backman: Yes.
Dougherty: Several hundred.
Backman: What type of training had you received regarding interviewing techniques?
Dougherty: Through the FBI we had training at the FBI academy. Prior to getting into the FBI, I attended several interview and interrogation courses through the John Reed school in Chicago. I had also been involved in some interview training after 9/11.
Backman: By March of 2003, had other agents called on you to assist with interviews?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: How often?
Dougherty: I don't have an exact number. Occasionally. It depends on what was going on in the office. ...
Backman: Now, the jury just watched the video for the defendant's interrogation on March 12, 2003. Where were you when that interrogation was being conducted?
Dougherty: I was actually in part of the interviews from one of the monitors in the police department.
Backman: How much of the interview did you watch?
Dougherty: A good portion of it. I started in another room when it started. Occasionally someone would step in and I would talk to them.
Backman: Were you doing anything else while you were watching?
Dougherty: I was reviewing some of the evidence that had been recovered on that day to include the book that Mr. mitchell had referred to.
Backman: Why were you reviewing that book?
Dougherty: He kept referring to it over and over again ... I wanted to kind of look through it and see what he was talking about.
Backman: Agent Dougherty, do you recognize this photo?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Who is it?
Dougherty: Brian David Mitchell.
Backman: Your honor, may the record reflect that?
Judge Kimball: It will so reflect.
Backman: Have you watched the video of the interrogation?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Are you aware the video cuts off before it ends?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Do you have any idea why?
Dougherty: Not a clue.
Backman: Were you watching the interview at the point it cut off?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: What happened from that point on?
Dougherty: The defendant didn't say anything for the rest of the time. There were a lot of people that started coming out of the interview room to discuss who was going to transport the defendant. How he was going to be taken to jail. ... those kind of logistical kind of items.
Backman: While those logistical items were happening, had the interview concluded.
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: At some point that day, did you go in to talk with the defendant?
Dougherty: I did.
Backman: When was that?
Dougherty: I don't have an exact time. ... There were a lot of people in and out of the room. Probably maybe a half an hour after that the my ASAC, the special agent in charge of our office, asked if we should maybe go in and talk to him.
Backman: So it was during the time all those logistical things were happening?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: You mentioned your ASAC was there. Did he go in with you?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: What was his name?
Dougherty: Daniel Roberts.
Backman: When you entered the interview room, who was in there?
Dougherty: Mr. Mitchell.
Backman: What was he doing?
Dougherty: He was sitting much like in the videotape, in the chair behind the desk with his eyes closed.
Backman: Was anyone else in there?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Where did you and your ASAC [assistant special agent in charge] sit?
Dougherty: I believe we sat directly across. I don't remember the order, who was sitting directly across from him.
Backman: What did you do when entered?
Dougherty: Introduced ourselves as FBI agents.
Backman: Did you review Miranda Rights with him?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Why not?
Dougherty: They already had read him his Miranda Rights.
Backman: Was your interview any different from the video?
Dougherty: Quite different.
Backman: How?
Dougherty: The approach we had was to open up a dialogue with him because he had been sitting there for a long time not saying ...
Backman: Did you become as confrontational?
Dougherty: Not at all.
Backman: Did you ever touch the defendant?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did the ASAC?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did you raise your voice with him?
Dougherty: Absolutely not.
Backman: What did you tell the defendant?
Dougherty: I basically just told him that I read through his book, and based on some of the things I'd read in there, had questions about what he'd written. When he felt like talking, we had questions.
Backman: What was his response?
Dougherty: He opened his eyes.
Backman: Did he speak to you?
Dougherty: No, he just looked at me. I flipped through the book and had highlighted some of the stuff, told him I was interested in it, but I was confused by a lot of it. I was confused by different terminology and different phrases.
Backman: Did he respond to that?
Dougherty: He did. He asked if I read the whole book.
Backman: What did you say?
Dougherty: I said no ... I had gotten to a point.
Backman: Did he move?
Dougherty: It wasn't drastic, but enough of a movement that he was more engaged. His body language changed.
Backman: When asked questions about his book, did he talk to you?
Dougherty: A little bit more. He was more anxious for me to read his entire book.
Backman: About how much was he was talking with you? Did he open up more?
Dougherty: Yes, yes, he did.
Backman: How long did that take?
Dougherty: I would guesstimate about 10 to 15 minutes. He opened up and engaged in a little conversation.
Backman: How long did that conversation last?
Dougherty: I'm guessing around an hour maybe a little bit more. It could have been up to two hours, when he started talking. The decision to take him to jail cut it short.
Backman: What was the main topic of conversation?
Dougherty: Mainly him and his book.
Backman: Did you talk about the accusations?
Dougherty: I attempted to.
Backman: What was his response?
Dougherty: First, like on the video, he would quote scriptures. If you read the book you know why it happens. He never got to where he would sing or quit talking to us. We just continued asking questions and how he came to sit in a ... in Salt Lake City and how his book fit into that.
Backman: How did you leave things with the defendant that day?
Dougherty: I asked if it would be possible, if I got permission, if he'd be willing to continue our conversation.
Backman: What did he say?
Dougherty: He said yes.
Backman: What did you do that night?
Dougherty: I went home and read the book ... cover to cover.
Backman: How many more times did you speak to the defendant?
Dougherty: Three more times.
Backman: So how long in total?
Dougherty: In hours, I'd say roughly six hours, two to three hours each, a little longer the last one.
Backman: During your interviews, did your interrogation techniques approach the tactics we just saw?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did you raise your voice?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did you ever touch him?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Who was with you?
Dougherty: Detective Carl Merino of SLCPD.
Backman: Was he there for all three?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: How did the defendant act?
Dougherty: Very different
Backman: How so?
Dougherty: We would have a conversation, I would ask a question and he would explain, or he would ask a question and I'd explain, more of an open ....
Backman: Was he defensive with you?
Dougherty: I wouldn't say defensive. I would say cautious.
Backman: In the video, did you see him be defensive?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Did he use archaic language?
Dougherty: No, unless he was quoting from the book or the Bible or something that was archaic, but otherwise no.
Backman: What type of language would he use?
Dougherty: Just like you and I. It was when I would ask him a question, he would generally ask a question for me to clarify that. Or he would use something that he had written in his book ... to answer the question. We'd talk about those things in a roundabout way and get back to the original question.
Backman: When he would try to deflect those questions, what would you do?
Dougherty: I would humor him for a bit. I wanted to keep him talking. I would let him go on and then try to get him back on task and ask the question with a different twist. So it would fit within more of what he was telling me.
Backman: Would you be able to get more information from the defendant when you would do that?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Do you have an example of one time that happened?
Dougherty: Yes. Obviously we had information about what happened. But one of the things I'd asked him early on was if he had sexual intercourse with Elizabeth. He told me that was an inappropriate question. At that point I apologized. I said, "Let me tell you this, you said she was your wife." He said, "Correct." "So you had some sort of marriage ceremony?" ... "Yes." "At that point in time was that marriage in front of God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "At that point in time, did you consummate your marriage to make it a true union?" He said, "Yes."
Backman: After he said he consecrated that marriage with you, did he have a reaction?
Dougherty: A few minutes later he stopped and kind of grinned at me. He looked at me and said that was pretty good.
Backman: Did he explain what he meant?
Dougherty: He said, "You got me to say something I didn't want to say." I said, "I'm just trying to get a full picture of what happened."
Backman: How many times did you get him to say something he didn't want to say?
Dougherty: On major points, I knew I made a point with him when he would stop and look at me and grin. It was kind of a cat-and-mouse, question-and-answer type thing. When he realized he got caught, he fessed up and said that was good.
Backman: How interested did you make it seem like you were in his religious beliefs?
Dougherty: I tried my best to seem as interested as I possibly could. I asked enough questions I felt like he kind of took me on as a project. He was trying to teach me what was in the book.
Backman: When he would speak about his religious ideas, was his speech ever incoherent?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Would he change topics midstream?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Was he willing to talk about his past?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: When he did, did he use any type of archaic language?
Dougherty: He never did when we talked.
...
Backman: When he talked about his past, would he say things like, "It matterth not"?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Was the defendant able to converse with you about topics where he didn't use religion at all?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: How often?
Dougherty: As often as I could convince him to ... I tried to make it appear that I was there for more than just getting answers from him on that particular topic?
Backman: Let's get back to where you conducted these next three interviews. Where did you conduct them?
Dougherty: At the Salt Lake County Detention Center. ... it was really a holding cell in the booking area, where they bring prisoners. It was really more of a holding cell than an interview room.
Backman: Did you record the interview?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Why not?
Dougherty: At the FBI we have a policy that we're not allowed to record any type of interview.
Backman: Did you notice anything that would happen when you started to take notes?
Dougherty: ... He took note of [any time I would stop to write it down]. He knew that was important enough for me to write it down that he probably shouldn't have said that.
Backman: What did you do?
Dougherty: I quit. I did not take notes after that. .... If he made a point to me, I would make a note of that and jot it down later in the middle of something totally unrelated.
Backman: How about Detective Merino? Did he take notes?
Dougherty: I believe he was set up behind me, on the concrete bench along the cage. He sat in front of me. Merino was behind me. I slid a notepad behind me so the defendant couldn't see him and wouldn't know he was jotting some dates down.
Backman: When was the next one?
Dougherty: March 14, again on March 15, again on March 17.
Backman: On the 14th, did you give Miranda Rights before you interviewed him?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Government exhibit 55. Is this the form you used to review Miranda Rights on March 14?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: And on March 15?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: How would you review them?
Dougherty: I would read each line, make sure they understand you have the right to remain silent, do you understand, made sure he understood each and every one of them.
Backman: As you went through step by step, how did he answer?
Dougherty: "Yes."
Backman: Did you ask if he was willing to speak?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Did he sign that form?
Dougherty: Yes, where it says signed.
Backman: Exhibit 56. What is this?
Dougherty: Another advice of rights form.
Backman: Did he appear to understand rights?
Dougherty: He did.
Backman: Did he waive his rights and agree to speak with you?
Dougherty: He did.
Backman: Would he sign that form?
Dougherty: He did not.
Backman: Did he say why?
Dougherty: He said he wasn't comfortable signing anything.
Backman: What did you do?
Dougherty: I asked if he would still be comfortable speaking to me....
Backman: What did you do when he refused to sign?
Dougherty: That's when I wrote "refused to sign, but willing to speak."
Backman: Any sign on March 17?
Dougherty: I don't know, but we didn't talk about his case. I didn't go through the form, didn't have a form to sign because not going to talk about his case, made that clear from the beginning.
Backman: When you approached the defendant on that first day, did you indicate you had read entire book?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Reaction?
Dougherty: I think he was pleased.
Backman: During your interview with the defendant, did he ask about legal the process?
Dougherty: He did.
Backman: Who initiated that?
Dougherty: I believe, especially on the 15th, the day he didn't want to talk about his case, he initiated it that day and asked what was the next step, where he was in the process and what would be the next stop.
Backman: How much time did you spend explaining the legal process?
Dougherty: Quite a bit.
Backman: Did he understand?
Dougherty: He did. I had to talk from a federal viewpoint. I'm not familiar with the state process, and at the time he was charged with a state crime, but I went step by step through what would happen.
Backman: Were there times he didn't understand?
Dougherty: Occasionally he would ask for a clarification.
Backman: After clarification, he understood those things?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: How long did he say he and Ms. Barzee and Elizabeth had been together?
Dougherty: Since the previous year, so nine months.
Backman: What did he say they did?
Dougherty: That they stayed in a camp up in the foothills.
Backman: Did he describe the camp?
Dougherty: He didn't say where, just that it was a camp.
Backman: What did he say they did?
Dougherty: He said he went back into Salt Lake City and wandered around, went in all by himself and then returned.
Backman: Did he indicate if they were able to go back into Salt Lake City?
Dougherty: He did.
Backman: What did he say?
Dougherty: He said he was amazed how much was going on. It was on the news, the radio, there were police everywhere. I was amazed at how much publicity it had gotten, knew it would be difficult to walk back into Salt Lake City without some precautions.
Backman: What precautions did he say that they took?
Dougherty: He said that Wanda and Elizabeth had sewn some veils and some wraps for their head and completely covered their head and face with the exception of some sheer material that covered their eyes. ...
Backman: Did you ask why Ms. Barzee and Elizabeth wore veils?
Dougherty: I did.
Backman: What was his response?
Dougherty: He kind of looked at me like I was an idiot. I asked him that and he looked at me like if we would have come back into town without those they would have known who we were. I think he was a little put off with me asking the question.
Backman: How many times did he state that in your interview?
Dougherty: Over the course of four days, half a dozen maybe.
Backman: What did he say would happen if Elizabeth was identified?
Dougherty: That she would be taken away from he and Wanda, and he and Wanda would go to jail.
Backman: How many times did he tell you that, that he and Ms. Barzee would go to jail?
Dougherty: Four to five.
Backman: You testified that oftentimes the defendant wouldn't answer questions. Was this one of those times, about them going to jail?
Dougherty: No. He volunteered that information to me. I know that if they found her true identity she would be taken away from us and we would go to jail.
Backman: Did he tell you about encounters he and Ms. Barzee had with police?
Dougherty: He did.
Backman: How many times?
Dougherty: He said they had four or five encounters over the nine months. ... He told me that she knew what to say and no matter what it was God's will.
Backman: Did he say he was frightened when he had these encounters with police?
Dougherty: He just thought "this was it. They're going to find out and they're going to take her away and Wanda and I are going to jail."
Backman: Did he tell you about an encounter with a police officer in Salt Lake City?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: What did he say?
Dougherty: He said — and I apologize, I don't remember the time frame — he said there was a detective in the department that was very close to the investigation that confronted them and started asking questions about Elizabeth's identity. They had a long conversation and after he was able to turn the officer away without having to reveal her true identity.
Backman: What did he say about his encounter with the police in Las Vegas?
Dougherty: Basically the same thing. the North Las Vegas Police Department had come up to them and he thought for sure that this was it. They were asking the right questions, but he was able to tell them enough of a story that they left. But he said the whole time he was frightened.
Backman: What type of clothes did he say they were wearing at that time?
Dougherty: I believe at that time they were not wearing the headdress or the veils at that time, I believe is what he told me.
Backman: What did he say about Elizabeth's parents?
Dougherty: He told me that deep in their hearts they knew she was supposed to be with him. ... I asked him, "What do you think that her parents had to be thinking that entire nine months?" and that would be his standard answer.
Backman: Did you ask him why he didn't just ask for their permission?
Dougherty: I did.
Backman: Would he respond to that?
Dougherty: Not at first.
Backman: Did he eventually respond to that question?
Dougherty: He did. ... He said by just walking up and asking Mr. and Mrs. Smart about their daughter wouldn't have as much of an impact as this played out.
Backman: What did you take that to mean?
Dougherty: When he said it, I really didn't know how to take it. But his next comments were specific enough. He talked about the impact, about the amount of publicity that this case had drawn, and at that point in time I took it that maybe he was in enjoying the limelight.
Backman: Did he say whether he had seen Elizabeth's father in press conferences?
Dougherty: I don't specifically remember that.
Backman: What did he say about the ability to return?
Dougherty: He said she was free to go and could return at any point.
Backman: Did he say that was at the very beginning?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: What did he say about Elizabeth missing her family?
Dougherty: He said they would have conversations about families and talk in great detail, and she would say she missed her family and they missed her dearly.
Backman: What would he do?
Dougherty: He would try to console her and comfort her and that they missed their families but that they were a family now and they had to just love this family and move on.
Backman: Did he say if Elizabeth ever cried?
Dougherty: Um, yes.
Backman: What did he say?
Dougherty: Specifically about missing her family, she would cry and sometimes cry at night.
Backman: What did he say about searchers calling for Elizabeth?
Dougherty: He told me shortly after her disappearance, up in the camps, they could hear the searchers calling out for her. At that point in time I asked if Elizabeth could hear it. He said yes, he thought searchers came within 50 yards.
Backman: So by saying she's free to leave, she could hear them?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: She could call out and they would hear her?
Dougherty: Yes, I asked if she was bound or gagged and he said no. He said she was bound by false traditions and prejudice.
Backman: Did it remind you of something you asked him earlier?
Dougherty: On that particular time, he didn't give me a grin and say. He realized on his own he had not addressed that, he had messed up and not said something and was trying to cover it up.
Backman: What did he say about the first meeting?
Dougherty: He remembered downtown, meeting Mrs. Smart and entire family. Mrs. Smart had given him some money, given him a phone number. If he wanted some work, he could call this number and do work at the house.
Backman: That first day he met the Smarts, did he say he spoke with Elizabeth?
Dougherty: He said he saw her but did not speak with her.
Backman: What did he know about her?
Dougherty: He could tell by the conversation with mom, she was someone who was very strong in her faith.
Backman: Did he ever indicate to you when he decided to take Elizabeth Smart?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did he say he worked at the Smart home?
Dougherty: He did.
Backman: Did he say where he spoke with Elizabeth that day?
Dougherty: He did not speak with her.
Backman: What did he recall?
Dougherty: From the moment he saw her she was supposed to be his wife. I asked how he knew that. He wouldn't get into that detail... He never had a conversation with her.
Backman: When he said he knew, was that the first time he saw her?
Dougherty: I believe he meant the first time he saw her.
Backman: What did he tell you about a party they attended in Salt Lake City?
Dougherty: He talked about going to a party with veils and headdresses on. He claimed he knew the host of the party. They mingled amongst the crowd. I took it from him it was kind of a younger crowd. He had a confrontation with someone he described as a punker, and a confrontation over things he was saying or that the individual was saying.
Backman: How did they leave?
Dougherty: There was a point where the host realized there was an issue between him and this punker and easier for him to leave then to have an issue with this punker.
Backman: Did he say they ever went to another party like that?
Dougherty: He said that was the last one they ever attended.
Backman: How did he say he got money to go to San Diego?
Dougherty: Through his street ministry.
Backman: What did he say about being excommunicated from the LDS Church?
Dougherty: I asked about him being excommunicated because sometimes he would refer to the Book of Mormon in a positive light and other times in a negative light. So I asked if he had been excommunicated. He said he wasn't excommunicated from the church but that they had excommunicated themselves from me.
Backman: What did he tell you about his membership in the LDS church prior to that?
Dougherty: He described in detail his childhood, that he was raised LDS but he wasn't practicing for a long time. He had some rebellious teenage years as most people do, and when he was about 26 or so he said he could recall vividly he was at a campfire smoking and drinking and finally something just came over him and consumed him. And he knew at that point in time he needed to go back to the church. ... At that point in time he stoped drinking and smoking and jumped in with both feet back into his beliefs.
Backman: How active was he in the LDS church?
Dougherty: The way he described it, extremely active. He was there daily doing everything he could with the church and all the different groups.
Backman: How did the defendant say the world would view him?
Dougherty: As a monster, a child predator and a sexual deviant.
Backman: Are those your words or his?
Dougherty: Those are his words.
Backman: What did he say about the world thinking he is crazy?
Dougherty: He said, "The world would will say I'm crazy." He said, "I'm not crazy. I'm just following God's will."
Backman: Did you give the defendant an opportunity to tell his story to the world?
Dougherty: I did. ... When I would ask him a specific question and he didn't want to answer it ... I would tell him I just want to know the truth. Would you just give it to me so I can tell the lawyers and the other agents and officers that the person they see is not who he is. ... He said, "No offense, but you telling them my story is just your interpretation of what I said. It's really not my story. It's just your interpretation of my story." I said, "Fair enough, but if i don't tell it, how's it going to get told?" He said, "Maybe someday in a trial."
Backman: The way you're describing it sounds like a normal conversation. Is that how it went down? Or were there some thees and thous?
Dougherty: I thought he made a very valid point. ... I can tell you exactly what he said, but the overall story, I would be telling you what he told me and I couldn't tell you what he was thinking at the time. So it made perfect sense when he told me.
Backman: What did you offer him?
Dougherty: He said maybe he could tell it at a trial that day. I said at that point it is still going to be someone else's interpretation. So I said, "Why don't I take you out of jail, to the FBI office, get you something to eat, set up a video recorder and you tell your story. You tell us what it is that occurred and why. I won't ask you questions. Then it's your story. It's in your words."
Backman: What was his response?
Dougherty: He said, "That's got some merit. Let me think about it."
Backman: Are those his words? "That's got some merit to it."
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Later on, did you ask him again?
Dougherty: I didn't want to push the issue. I said, "What do you think about that idea?" He said, "At this point in time I probably shouldn't do it." I said if he changed his mind he could call me.
Backman: Did he ever call you?
Dougherty: We talked again the next day, but the defendant didn't think that was in his best interest.
Backman: Did the defendant talk to you about prophets in your interviews?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: What did he say?
Dougherty: What he said the most was that the world was full of false prophets.
Backman: Did he indicate if there were true prophets?
Dougherty: Yes.
Backman: Did he ever identify what his position was relative to God?
Dougherty: His statements to me were that he was a servant of God.
Backman: Did he ever say he was a prophet?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did he ever refer to himself as Davidic king?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did he talk about fighting the antichrist?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: How much did he open up about religion?
Dougherty: A lot, mostly how it related to his book. More than I wanted.
Backman: Did he talk about lying in the street for three days and coming back to life?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: Did he talk about violence?
Dougherty: What he talked to me about was God's love and God's people. More of what he talked about was about peace and love, 1960's hippie peace and love, and those kinds of things.
Backman: What was the final thing you talked about?
Dougherty: The last day we talked I asked about the attempted break-in on the Wright family on the 24th of July.
Backman: What was his reaction?
Dougherty: He abruptly ended the interview.
Backman: How?
Dougherty: He said he didn't want to talk anymore.
Backman: How was his demeanor?
Dougherty: Leading up to that it was the same. I don't know if it was out of frustration or if I had angered him, but we were clearly done.
Backman: You said not like his demeanor the rest of the time. What was that?
Dougherty: Like this, like you and I sitting here talking.
Backman: When you, throughout your interviews, was there anything that stuck out to you with the way he would answer his questions?
Dougherty: More than anything else, when i asked what had happened, or about religious topics, he would pause for a long time, formulate an answer and then give me an answer. I wouldn't get an immediate answer. There was a noticeable pause. In the video you could see a distinct pause before the answer.
Backman: How did that compare to the hundreds of other interviews you had done?
Dougherty: Quite different.
Backman: How?
Dougherty: When interviewing someone who has been arrested, they are throwing answers out fairly quickly, then later wish they hadn't. He was thinking about these questions before formulating an answer. He really thought those through.
Backman: How did he come across?
Dougherty: As intelligent and very cautious.
Backman: At this point in your career, March of 2003, had you interviewed people who were mentally ill?
Dougherty: I had.
Backman: How many?
Dougherty: I couldn't tell you an answer. Several.
Backman: Did you ever get the indication that he was mentally ill?
Dougherty: No.
Backman: What were the differences?
Dougherty: The people who I had talked to in the past, their answers were coming from everywhere. It was a shotgun approach, there were delusions. Mr. Mitchell had something he wanted to say, and he would only answer the questions he felt were appropriate and that he could use and funnel through his beliefs.
Backman: No further questions, your honor.
Judge Kimball: How long will your cross-examination take?
Lewis: More than half an hour.
Judge Kimball: Thank you for your work and attention. Do not watch, listen, etc., etc. See you at 8:30 in the morning.